Gregg Schigiel: With Comic-Con prep and the Con itself behind us, it’s time to get back in the RE: COMICS! saddle and talk about comics again. And in as much as I thought it might be fun to go category-by-category and compare our Eisner Award predictions with the actual results, I then realized I’d confused fun with super-boring.
Instead, as news from San Diego spreads and jockeys for position to get noticed amongst so much “noise”, I though it might be nice to take a different path and talk about “underrateds”…which is to say, point out and give props to those who maybe don’t get the attention we think they deserve, or, alternatively, don’t get the right kind of attention/acclaim/credit.
So maybe there’s a writer out there doing great work but isn’t a household name…or there’s an artist out there who, even though they’re a big name, should get credit for something else. I don’t know what.
Interestingly, semi-speaking of the Eisner’s, there was once a category called “Talent Deserving of Wider Recognition”…so I guess we’re sort of doing that.
To that end, let’s go categorical and see what happens.
And here we go!
Gregg: Anyone who’s been reading these conversations can probably predict where I’ll go here, but hopefully I’ll have surprises. Obviously I was quite taken by MYSTERIOUS THE UNFATHOMABLE and think Tom Fowler should have been given awards or more attention/acclaim than I think he’s gotten. I think the team of Gurihiru really does pretty great work on the POWER PACK comics, not getting the kind of attention they probably deserve.
And maybe most underrated of all: Ryan Ottley. They guy’s unbelievable…and the fact that he was working on both INVINCIBLE and HAUNT and doing such beautiful work…I mean, come on! And then there’s Sea Bear and Grizzly Shark…or his 24 Hr. comic from a year or so back. He’s pretty amazing…and it should be noted he’s NOT jumped ship to go do a “mainstream” title or anything like that where he could probably get a lot more attention.
Stephen Mayer: I think Chris Samnee deserves every award, and not just because he drew me into a comic! Chris did get an Eisner nomination five years ago for CAPOTE IN KANSAS with Ande Parks, but I would almost say he's a completely different artist from then. In an age when superstar artists struggle to put a book on the shelf every two months, Chris can pretty much knock out 2 monthlies. My big praise for him is that watching him draw is like watching a Renaissance sculptor work with marble; it's like the image is already there in the paper and he's just setting it free. It's amazing to witness. It drives me crazy when I hear people say they don't want to read THOR: THE MIGHTY AVENGER because it's not in continuity or whatever because I think it could be the best superhero book in the shelves.
Fiona Staples, she's gonna be big. She's been paying her dues on THE AUTHORITY and NORTH 40 from Wildstorm and MYSTERY SOCIETY from IDW and a Spider-Woman story in ASTONISHING TALES from Marvel, so it's only a matter of time before she gets discovered in a big way.
And Evan "Doc" Shaner. Jermaine and I flew him all the way here from Colorado just because we loved his stuff so much and wanted to hang out with him. See, it's not creepy if you run a comic shop! But we wanted as many people as possible to see him, even if it was our customers instead of the whole world.
I dare say you are deserving of wider recognition! You're responsible for so many stories and pin-ups of characters, be they Marvel or Sponge Bob, that are staples in people's minds and yet you rarely get credit for them!
Gregg: Aw, shucks.
But thanks, I appreciate it. The nature of ones recognition or lack thereof could be a topic all its own. I’m not the only person who’s not 100% comfortable tooting his own horn or listing credits or whatever, so I’ll just leave it at a very simple: I appreciate the people who appreciate the work I’ve done and intend to do.
What do you have to say about…
Stephen: Scott Snyder has really impressed me on AMERICAN VAMPIRE. You'd think it would be near impossible to open for Stephen King issue after issue, and frustrating that while Snyder was the series creator a lot of people give King more credit for it's success. But I was talking to someone earlier today and we agreed that we enjoyed Snyder's stories better than King's and we're actually looking forward to the bigger name's departure from the title.
Gregg: I’ve not read that book so I can’t speak to it, but I’ve recently been reading old issues of JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED, the comic based on the cartoon, and not for nothing, that Adam Beechen’s a great comic book writer. He nails it in 22 pages every time. Then he also does some smaller-press/indy stuff like DUGOUT or HENCH…and then does something like KILLAPALOOZA!. But I’m still really impressed by his all-ages stuff. It doesn’t condescend, it’s fun and clear and comic-booky in all the right ways.
In fact, I give props to all those folks who are doing that kind of thing. Landry Walker on BATMAN: THE BRAVE & THE BOLD…Balthazar and Franco on POWER OF SHAZAM!...Joe Caramagna on IRON MAN: THE ARMOR WARS…in the realm of “all-ages” comics, these guys are doing it right.
Gregg: The word “legend” gets thrown around quite a bit. Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko...Siegel & Schuster…Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Jerry Robinson…Will Eisner, etc. And in the modern era you get Frank Miller, Alan Moore, etc. But who hasn’t gotten their respective due as a “legend”?
John Buscema is my pick for underrated legend. I could be wrong on this one in that he might be more revered and recognized than I’m aware, but it seems so many others of his era, be it John Romita, Sr, Jim Steranko, Neal Adams, etc, seem to get more “press”. But, for example, “How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way”, credited as “By Stan Lee”, was actually based on a workshop John used to teach for a number of years before that book existed. I got the opportunity to work with him once and can tell you he was a total pro, a total work horse, and had zero ego for someone who, in my estimation, is and was a powerhouse in the field.
On a more modern level, I think because of non-comics-related bits of business, like message boards or general personality things, John Byrne’s influence maybe hasn’t gotten it’s proper tipping of the hat. But as a creator in the realm of superhero/genre comics, when you look at his work on FANTASTIC FOUR and SUPERMAN, those were major touchstones…his take on She-Hulk is still quite definitive, as are his contributions to Wolverine. Not to mention his creator-owned NEXT MEN, which along with Sin City and Concrete, let the Dark Horse “Legends” imprint in the early ‘90s…where, even if in was a minor role, Byrne participated in the launch of HELLBOY…which is pretty much a great thing.
Stephen: John Romita Jr.
Gregg: Nice, no explanation or nothing…not even a “’nuff said.” But yes, for sure. He’s been around a long time and has consistently turned out great work. A lot of his contemporaries get more attention for doing covers or high profile minis, but he’s a super-talented cartoonist that brings it, ESPECIALLY when he’s given the material to bring it with. And he’s on more than one occasion produced two monthlies with incredible work on both.
I’d also add, in a similar vein, Alan Davis, a personal favorite of mine who, again, has consistently done beautiful work without, again, the glory that comes with it…even though there are those clearly influenced by his work that have.
Stephen: Yeah, I meant to actually type something for John Romita Jr. And had just put his name in as a placeholder to come back to, but it works with your response. You said pretty much everything that I was going to and I agree with Alan Davis. Both of those guys seem to get passed over because they haven't slowed down the way some of their contemporaries did.
Stephen: LOST AT SEA is Bryan Lee O'Malley's first graphic novel from Oni Press. The art is a little rougher than SCOTT PILGRIM, but the story's all there. It just got completely eclipsed when Scott Pilgrim really took off around volume 4.
MOTHER, COME HOME by Paul Hornschemeier is a book that I borrowed from my friend when I was just getting back into comics. The twist at the end really shook me and all of my friends and it still makes me squirm when I think about it 6 years later. I bought the one copy at we had here at Acme, but outside of my circle of friends sophomore year I've never heard anyone say a word about it.
The OMEGA THE UNKNOWN revamp by Jonathan Lethem and Farel Dalrymple from a couple years ago was pretty killer. I never read any of the original Steve Gerber material, but I love what those guys did with the concepts. I said it was like the perfect indie superhero comic. Squid and the Whale meets Superman.
Gregg: Looking over my bookshelf I see a number of books I remember liking a lot, but feel like I’d need to re-read them before giving an official “underrated” mark. But of the things on my shelf, I’ll call out the following:
THREE FINGERS by Rich Koslowski was something I picked up one year at Comic-Con and read it cover to cover on my redeye flight home, very taken by it’s cleverness and delivery. I was just thinking about it, too, as Rich just illustrated a new book, B.B. & THE THREE L.P.s that I’m halfway through and liking so far.
LESS THAN HEROES and DEATH BY CHOCOLATE by David Yurkovitch are collections of a self-published series from the late nineties. I liked the stuff well enough that I tried to get Yurkovitch work writing something over at Marvel when I was an assistant, but it never came to be. But the stuff’s real quirky/indy, but in a good way. LTH being about a super team in Philadelphia without much to do and DBC being about a detective made of chocolate solving odd crimes…all of it was interesting, funny, imaginative and worth checking out if you like things with an atypical flair.
THE MONSTER AT THE END OF THIS BOOK by Jon Stone. I almost don’t want to say anything about it and have people just look it up and/or order it blindly (it’s cheap, folks, like three or four bucks on Amazon). But I won’t do that. This isn’t, technically, a comic, but it’s got color art and lettered word balloons and a sequential narrative and it stars Sesame Street’s Grover and it’s one of the great books, interactive before that was a buzz word, and especially great to read aloud to a child. I can’t prove it, but somehow I think subconsciously that book planted an early seed in me to love comics. (there’s a sequel, with Elmo, but respect must be paid to the original in this instance…seriously)
Lastly I’ll just point out DAISY KUTTER: THE LAST TRAIN, by Kazu Kibuishi, if only to say it’s a beautifully drawn book with a rare thing: a nicely presented female lead.
(and I have a copy of MOTHER, COME HOME,,,but I’m not sure I ever finished it, so it’s going into the “to read” stack, for sure)
Gregg: So we’re going with underrated here, so I’m not going to mention say, my former boss who obviously had an influence over me, mostly because he’s not underrated at all.
Instead I’ll point to Joey Cavalieri, who at one point was editing about 80% of the books I was buying out of DC; books like SHADOWPACT, PLASTIC MAN, AQUAMAN…and he’s the editor of BIZARRO COMICS, which a lot of people really dug. I think he’s often considered “old school”, but I guess when he’s left to his own devices, he puts out books that fit my tastes as a reader.
There are other editors at the big two I’ve heard good things about, but haven’t worked with them yet, nor have I gotten a real sense of their specific approach, so it’s hard to say.
It’s dawning on me that I should probably know more about editors in this business.
Stephen: I gotta give props to Mark Chiarello, who is currently the artistic director at DC. He edited Darwyn Cooke on NEW FRONTIER and THE SPIRIT and he was the driving force behind WEDNESDAY COMICS, which as I pointed out in our Eisner discussion, I think was completely robbed of a nom, much less an award.
I also don't think Stephen Wacker gets nearly enough credit. 52 took a lot of flack in the wake of INFINITE CRISIS, but in retrospect, for it to have kept on schedule for a whole year while bridging together the ideas of Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka and Keith Giffen couldn't have been easy. And as I pointed out to Jermaine a few weeks ago, the "Brand New Day" era of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, which Wacker has edited, now makes up 15% (94 issues and counting) of the title's entire publication run. He does a killer letters page to boot. "Viva [whatever]!"
Gregg: I’m throwing all my chips in this category to independent and self-publishers. Cartoon Books, Abstract Studios…I with David Lapham would do more of his own stuff via his El Capitan imprint. I’m not sure I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ve taken a lot of inspiration from what Jimmy Gownley (along with Harold Buchholz) did with AMELIA RULES! Through his Renaissance Press (before it got picked up and all). And to that end I think more mind should be paid to those traditional publishers who are now producing comics/graphic novels...when folks talk about growing the audience and new genres and stuff, that’s where it’s happening, in the independant/self-published and non-mainstream comics publisher arenas.
Stephen: :01 (First Second) has done a lot of really nice things over the last few years like LAIKA and AMERICAN BORN CHINESE. I think people know those titles, but not who puts them out.
Boom Studios is starting to get a larger profile and some attention for their kids books like THE MUPPET SHOW and Mark Waid's IRREDEEMABLE, but those have only been around in the last 16 months or so for a company that's been publishing for half a decade. I admire that they're dealing with other distributors that will offer bigger discounts outside of Diamond and they're trying to get out in front with their own app and podcasts, allowing them to run with Marvel and DC in that way and get a step ahead of Image and Dark Horse.
If we were talking overrated stuff, I'd have some things to say, too...
Gregg: Talking about overrateds, I think, could get us into trouble or make some enemies; let’s keep it positive (because yeah, there are a lot of emperors out there without any clothes on).
I also think Archie Comics should get a greater tip of the hat. They’ve been doing their thing for a long time and have been very on-the-ball with the new technologies, getting in on the iPhone app game first, etc. And they make comics for their reader base, which is a different animal than the direct market comics audience…and they’ve been very good over the many years getting wider distribution, etc. And for characters that at this point pretty much exist in comics alone (no cartoon, movie, video game, etc), they’ve done a heck of a job maintaining recognition in the world, you know?
Stephen: The new sweatshirts that are based on superhero costumes and have masks built into the hoods are awesome! I got the Captain America get-up down at HeroesCon, but it's been too freakin' hot all summer for me to take it for a spin.
It's on the comic periphery at this point, but Ecto Cooler from Hi-C gets the best paranormal/sci-fi/comics now that they're published by IDW related beverage!
SKY HIGH isn't directly comics related either, but it does make great use of a lot of superhero mainstays and builds them into a movie that can be enjoyed by comic fans both young and old. It also has a fantastic cast with Michael Angarano (Almost Famous), Mary Elizabeth Winstead (Scott Pilgrim vs. The World), Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Bruce Campbell (Evil Dead), Kurt Russell (Big Trouble in Little China), Kelly Preston (SpaceCamp), Cloris Leachman (Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid), Dave Foley (Kids in the Hall), Kevin McDonald (Kids in the Hall), Patrick Warburton (The Tick) and if I remember correctly Tom Kenny of Spongebob and Mr. Show fame in the last scene.
I was recently re-watching THE TICK on Netflix, and it might be the best comic show ever.
Gregg: There was a SKY HIGH comic, at least six pages worth, in the late, lamented DISNEY ADVENTURES magazine…which I know because I drew it!
I declare DICK TRACY an underrated comics-based movie!
And LEGO Batman is an underrated comics-based game (I could be wrong, but I hear people talk about that Arkham Asylum game a whole lot more; I’ve not played that one, but LEGO Batman’s a blast).
And while they’re beloved as nostalgic memories, towels are underrated as makeshift capes…in fact, come to think of it, amidst all the cosplay I’ve see at conventions, I’ve not once seen anyone, male or female, adult or child, go old-school/classic with a towel tied or pinned around their neck. I think that’d be kind of awesome to see, quite frankly.
Stephen: I didn't love LEGO Batman on Wii, but I think that's because the controls were really annoying with the Wiimote, I'll probably give it another shot now that I've got an Xbox.
Stephen: Matt Wilson has been blowing my mind since he started coloring PHONOGRAM for the second volume and he continues to do so on THOR: THE MIGHTY AVENGER. Emily Warren really caught my eye during our discussions about X-BABIES. And Christina Strain's textures have always really impressed me on book like RUNAWAYS and SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE.
Gregg: In light of recent hullabaloo over colorist and royalties a little bit ago, an argument could be made that all colorists are underrated, but that said, the one colorist who’s caught my eye, as often I notice colorists maybe overdoing it, is Dave McCaig, who from what I’ve seen has a deft if not subtle hand with his work; very aware and in service to the story and storytelling. It’s very nice.
I feel like I’m packing for a long trip…you know that “I feel like I’m forgetting something” feeling? And I’m sure once this is posted I’ll remember and think “oh, dang, I forgot to mention X and/or Y!” and feel terrible for it.
Stephen: Oh, I'm sure I'm forgetting folks as well, but I'm sun-baked and nursing a mild case of vertigo, so I have an excuse.
Gregg: Excuses, excuses…you’re excused.
All this talk of underrated people and things in comics reminds me of a conversation from way back (yep, another “Gregg recounts something from his days at Marvel”). I was talking to Carlos Pacheco, himself super-talented and skilled and awesome and of whom I’m a fan, about career paths and decisions we make and goals and such, and he said something very interesting. He said how his goal, career-wise, wasn’t to necessarily be the guy at the top of the marquee…a Neal Adams or Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee, no, he said he wanted to be like Sal Buscema (another underrated Buscema, come to think of it). He wanted to have a long, steady career drawing comics…be a guy who was known for doing good work and GOT work for as long as the ability is there to do it.
And there’s something to that. The idea that the job itself, being able to make comics, in whatever form one gets to do it, is a reward itself in a lot of ways.
Though getting paid tons of money wouldn’t be so bad either…just sayin’.
Gregg Schigiel is a cartoonist, illustrator, and writer. He's worked as a penciller, writer and editor for Marvel Comics and an illustrator and cartoonist at Nickelodeon. In addition, he's in various stages of cooking up new comics-related works, unless he's too preoccupied actually cooking. Check out his website at Hatter Entertainment.com.
Stephen Mayer makes his mama proud going to work sick and not crying on any of the big roller coasters.
