RE: Comics! 31 [Favorite Runs]

 

Stephen Mayer: In today’s world of comics, where it can really seem like a writer or artist is just creating for the individual collection, it’s rare to see a consistent “run” on a title longer than 20 or so issues.

Of course, there are the exceptions, like Bendis on New Avengers or Daredevil or Geoff Johns on Green Lantern, but nowadays most titles more closely resemble Fantastic Four, which, after a lengthy run with Mark Waid and primarily artist Mike Wieringo, has seen Karl Kesel for 2 issues (#525-526), JMS for 17 (#527-543), Dwayne McDuffie for 10 (#544-553), and Mark Millar for 16 (#554-569) before Jonathan Hickman began his current stretch.

So let’s say for the sake of our argument that a run must be at least…25 issues long? 30? I dunno, you tell me, but let’s make it a meaty chunk of work.

Gregg Schigiel: Oh boy…I’ll probably screw this up only because I’m pretty terrible at remembering issue numbers and just how long someone worked on a book.

We’ve talked about it before, but I’m a fan of Dan Jurgens and John Romita, Jr.’s run on THOR and Kurt Busiek and George Perez on AVENGERS, but I have my biases there as I was part of those books.

But prior to that, I really liked Joe Kelly’s DEADPOOL, which, despite his apparent massive popularity now, I still think of that period as the “definitive” Deadpool.

I liked X-FACTOR for a good long while, which as I recall was all Louise Simonson, right?

I read a whole lot of Peter David HULK back in the day, through all the iterations of artists; those were good comics.

And Mark Waid on FLASH is on my list.

On the art side I really dug Norm Breyfogle on DETECTIVE/BATMAN, which was during what might’ve been my prime reading time.

And where to creator-owned/Vertigo type books fit in? Do Jeff Smith on BONE, David Lapham on STRAY BULLETS, Willingham/Buckingham on FABLES and B.K. Vaughan/Pia Guerra on Y: THE LAST MAN count as “runs”?

And speaking of something like Y, what about books with intended end-points, be it a 12 issue maxi-series or, like Y, a series with a clear ending in mind from go?

Stephen: I was surprised that you didn’t mention Claremont’s X-Men at all.

I’d definitely put James Robinson, Tony Harris, Peter Snejbjerg and all the other guys that worked on STARMAN vol. 2 right near the top of my list. #1-80, Secret Files, 80-Page Giant, the Shade mini-series, both Annuals, the two issues of Power of Shazam, Girlfrenzy: the Mist, Showcase short stories, Batman/Hellboy/Starman and all! It’s kind of crazy that James Robinson took a character that I think only appeared in one panel in Zero Hour and built this gigantic mythology around him using fantastic new characters and a bunch of pieces from the DC toy chest that no one else wanted to play with. I don’t think Robinson knew where it was going when he started, partially because I think the series was in danger of cancellation for a while and partly because I think the creative process was really a journey for him as a creator and person as well. It also speaks to the strength of the work that no one has touched Jack Knight in the nine years since the series ended.

Grant Morrison’s NEW X-MEN was the first lengthy run that I bought up in a whole chunk, though before that I had read it by checking trades out at the public library and going through it completely out of order. There’re two things that I find kind of weird about that run: 1) While Grant Morrison wrote all 43 issues, I think Frank Quitely only drew 9 issues of it, but most people would think of it as Morrison and Quitely’s run collectively. Ethan Van Sciver, Chris Bachalo, Phil Jimenez, and Marc Silvestri were all in the mix, and I’m pretty sure that Igor Kordey ended up doing more than anyone else. Quitely did do the re-designs and he did more covers than just those for the issues he penciled, and many of the most iconic images belong to him. 2) Marvel wanted something completely different when the run started, something they could market to people that saw the X-Men movies with leather costumes, and then by the end they tried their hardest to completely sweep all of the concepts that Morrison put out there right under the rug. Secondary mutation, John Sublime and the Nu-men, Xorn, Beak, all of it. Without Joss Whedon bringing up Cassandra Nova in Astonishing X-Men, I don’t know that there would be any aspects of this run still in play.

Right now I’m going through Walt Simonson’s run on THOR in the Visionaries trade paperbacks. I can see why everyone brags about it. I really dig that it’s not just about Thor, but all of the Asgardians. I never knew that the Enchantress had a sister or Balder was hooking up with Karnilla the Norn Queen or that Volstagg had a rambunctious daughter named Hildy and that he adopted two boys from Midgard after their mother was killed. They all get stories while you still get crazy Odinson adventures like him against Surtur and Kurse and becoming Frog Thor. The only Jurgens Romita, Jr. Thor I’ve read was whatever was collected in the first trade that came out recently. The only similarities that I saw so far were Hela’s involvement and that both Simonson and Jurgens played with Thor’s secret identity, making him literally masquerade as Sigard Jarlson and binding him with the spirit of Jake Olsen, respectively. The new Jurgens/Romita, Jr. trade came out his week, so I’m hoping to read it this weekend or next.

I also agree with Busiek and Perez’s AVENGERS, which I read in the Avengers Assemble oversized hardcovers. I miss an Avengers story where the entire world can go to crap and then as soon as they actually beat the bad guy everything goes back to normal. I’m hoping that Marvel’s upcoming Heroic Age will bring in some more of that.

My first instinct was to say that Jeff Smith on BONE or BKV and Pia Guerra on Y totally count. Then I thought that maybe those just count as a series. Maybe a run needs to be on an even longer running title or on a character or in a universe that belongs to a larger tapestry.

I’m game to talk favorite minis and maxis if you are!

Gregg: Believe it or not, I never read much of the Claremont X-MEN when it was coming out. I read the first Essential volume (or I think I read the whole thing; I can’t remember). At the time my older brother read the X-Books that weren’t X-Factor.

I say we save minis and maxis for another day because that might maybe spin us in a whole other direction.

Speaking of Avengers, when I was first buying comics I wasn’t paying attention to creators…I’d buy based on characters or titles. But in hindsight, I definitely read a whole lot of Roger Stern’s AVENGERS, which likely without me realizing it at the time, really formed my opinions of what that team is all about (which is, not to hit this point again, it’s so weird to me that someone can come into the Avengers any time in the past 7 years and “get it”). The first time I remember consciously looking for specific creators was looking for the names Barr, Davis and Neary on copies of DETECTIVE, which were really great comics, though, as I just looked it up, Mike Barr, Alan Davis and Paul Neary only did seven or so issues, which by our terms, ain’t a run.

I read STARMAN for a while but for some reason got off that bus. I know it’s very highly regarded and I liked what I’d read, but yeah, somehow it fell off my radar.

I read I think 2 or 3 issues of Grant Morrison’s X-MEN and wasn’t feeling it. But I’m, blasphemy alert, not as gaga over Grant as apparently everyone else is. I like some stuff here and there, but his name on something doesn’t make it an automatic buy. At this point I’m not sure there’s anyone who merits an automatic buy. I’d say maybe Brian Vaughan, but I waited a couple of years for his Escapists trade to come out.

Oh, you know what was a really great run: Kurt Busiek and Pat Olliffe on UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN. That was a really excellent comic book. And I don’t know how it holds up in hindsight, but at the time I was really into Valentino’s GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY.

It’s interesting that as I work back in my memory banks I more settle on “moments” rather than longer-term storylines.

There are a lot of “legendary” runs I’ve never read, though. I’ve never read Frank Miller’s Daredevil stuff, or Steranko’s S.H.I.E.L.D., or Jack Kirby’s 4th World books…or for that matter the legendary Lee/Kirby FF that so many people swear by as the best comics ever.

Or maybe I’m just a contrarian and look for the things that people aren’t speaking so highly of, like Tom DeFalco and Ron Frenz on THOR, speaking of long runs on that title (which, truth be told, while it wasn’t setting the world on fire, it really was a good comic book month to month – but they came on following Simonson, so the game was stacked against them).

But as much as there are these well-regarded, often praised runs, I’ve yet to go back and read them, despite their being available in collections galore.

You’re clearly much better about going back and reading old works. So are there famous runs from the past that you have your reading sights set on?

Stephen: The Thor Visionaries that I’m finishing up now are the first reprints from Marvel that I’m getting to in trade paperback. Usually the color reproduction turns me off, but I think that process has really improved in the last few years, so next I’m going to give John Byrne’s FANTASTIC FOUR and Peter David’s HULK a chance, also in Visionaries. Adam the First Man started collecting David Hulk in singles a few months ago and it wasn’t really setting him on fire, so I don’t have really high hopes for that one.

I’m always fighting against the urge to move even further back into LEGION OF SUPER HEROES. I think that I’ve mentioned that I’ve read everything from the last 15 years (since Zero Hour) and even though people complain and caution that they wind up re-telling the same stories over and over and then throw everything out the window, something about those characters and that team dynamic is really endearing to me. I read Great Darkness Saga, which makes me really want to go through all of the Paul Levitz stuff (quick aside – I’m trying to not get excited about the new Levitz Legion because of the way things went when Jim Shooter returned to the title in 2008).

I’ve tried to read Claremont X-Men in Essentials multiple times. I don’t think there’s a better way to get that stuff in a consistent format and they’ve already done more consecutive volumes than I ever would have expected. The thing that really holds me back is that it feels like Claremont is actively fighting against the art with overwhelming narration and overly verbose dialogue. I ran into the same problem when I tried to do Lee/Kirby FF in omnibus hardcovers.

I keep saying that I’m going to get through Mark Waid’s FLASH. Every time we have a backstock sale I usually swoop in before everyone else and snatch up a whole run of something 90s DC. Last year it was Legion, this year it was Peter David’s AQUAMAN. I’ve read the initial re-telling of Flash’s origin from Waid’s run and I’ve read Terminal Velocity a couple of times, but I’ve never made my way through it all. One day I’ll get there.

We’re talking a lot about writers’ runs on books and while there are artists that stand out to us, like when I mentioned Quitely on New X-Men and you brought up Alan Davis, Paul Neary, and Mike Barr on Detective, can you think of some artists’ whose style really defined a run or character?

Gregg: “The Return of Barry Allen” story Mard Waid did in FLASH is great, and I’m pretty sure still available in trade. This was before ‘Ringo joined on the book. But it’s pretty great; blows “Flash: Rebirth” out of the water. If you don’t read the whole Waid run, that’s at least a small chunk of it worth reading.

As for artists defining during their run, you mentioned John Byrne, who I think on a lot of books he’s worked on he’s made definitive marks, from Superman to She-Hulk and of course his X-Men and FF work.

Mike Wieringo did a lot to define the Flash, and later he really put a nice stamp on the FF. And I mentioned earlier how much I liked Norm Breyfogle’s Batman work. I don’t want to repeat too much of what I’d said in our talk about favorite characters though.

The list of artists whose styles really had profound effects on books really could go on and on, though. Perez on the Avengers, Neal Adams on Batman, Simonson on Thor, Jim Lee, Mark Silvestri, and Joe Madureira with X-Men, Rob Liefeld on New Mutants/X-Force, Dale Keown on Hulk, and maybe the king of them all, you can’t deny the impact of Todd McFarlane on Spider-Man.

All of those guys in a lot of ways were game-changers when they made their marks on their respective books, to be sure.

But credit should go to those who’ve really done great work without maybe changing the industry or the nature of the character or spawn legions of immitators. A guy like Carlos Pacheco brings a unique and beautiful look to everything he works on, even f it’s just a few issues. Ron Garney on Captain America (and Hulk) was tremendous. John Romita Jr. and Alan Davis bring their unique visual sensibility and language to the table. Ivan Reis has been bringing it with his Green Lantern work. Stuart Immonen has been kicking but and developing amazingly from his earlier work on Legion and Superman to his more recent Ultimate Spider-Man and New Avengers stuff. Props should go to Mark Bagley for his run on Thunderbolts. Maybe less regarded by many, I think a lot of people think fondly of Ron Lim’s Silver Surfer run. Scott McDaniel certainly did consistent, fine work on Nightwing and other titles.

Most of these are much more modern examples… Oh man, how about Ryan Ottley on Invincible?! He’s great.

As an art guy I really could go on and on with guys who I like…eventually I’d get off course, for sure (if I haven’t already).

I’m a big Kyle Baker fan and would put his run on Plastic Man on a list of great turns with a character.

But as you stated at the start of this conversation, the days of long runs seem to be a things of the past. Even if someone’s committed to a book, like Baker on Plastic Man, that book got cancelled. Or some artists can’t maintain the monthly schedule or are shuffled around editorially.

As the dynamic has changed, from writing comics that work as single issues and also as part of a larger “soap opera-style” tapestry or narrative to the “writing for the trade” model, it appears the model has changed from keeping a team on to weave their tale to switching things up when the moment strikes.

And truthfully, I’m not sure one is any better than the other on a creative side (we’ve already talked about decompression and pacing and writing for trade vs. the previous method). Particularly as I’ve changed from a guy who as a kid and teenager bought BATMAN and AVENGERS based on the titles alone to someone who flips through books, considers the story, the creative team, etc.

Though that begets the question: better to have a single artist who can deliver month-to-month consistency despite not setting the world on fire, or better to have headline-making names who, because they can’t keep up schedule-wise, result in constantly changing visuals and lateness?

And, as a more modern reader who’s now going back and experiencing longer runs…even if in collections (do you take a 30 day break between issues of the trade to replicate the month-long wait?), do you have a preference or maybe a yearning to go back to that older model? Or not so much?

Stephen: I don't wait 30 days between reading back issues, but I've been especially enjoying Simonson's teasers at the end of each issue of Thor. The last one I read (#376) left you hanging with "Find out in thirty days--if the suspense doesn't kill you! And believe us, you won't believe us!"

To your first question, I definitely think a happy medium can exist between great art and a timely schedule. A lot of the guys you mentioned like Immonen are doing some of the best work of their careers and doing it in time to ship every 4 weeks. That was sexist of me. Amanda Conner is killing it on POWER GIRL and it's remained monthly for 9 months so far while she had the Supergirl story in WEDNESDAY COMICS and did covers for books like GEN 13 and the upcoming GIRL COMICS anthology from Marvel. You can have it all.

As a retailer and a reader I feel a little differently. I like books with superstar artists. On the business side they bump readership and from a personal side I've always enjoyed books with good art and a bad story more than the other way around. I also read so many new books every week, every month, that a lot of the time I don't even notice that something hasn't come out on time. And in the world of event based storytelling, typically the whole machine can't stop producing for one book, so you get Captain America in NEW AVENGERS and SIEGE or Flash in BLACKEST NIGHT: FLASH before the delayed stories wrap anyway. I think that editorial needs to stick to their choices when they pick a creative team for a job. Better FLASH: REBIRTH or CIVIL WAR or CAPTAIN AMERICA: REBORN ship late than bring on a fill-in. That's not to say that during a longer run a creator doesn't need a break once in a while. Using the Thor Simonson example, he'd have a fill-in every ten issues or so, but that's to be expected when you've got somebody writing, pencilling, and inking their stuff.

To the second question about a reversion to the older style of storytelling, I'd definitely be in favor of it, but I don't see it happening, even in the Heroic Age. More and more comics seem to be repackaged for "the trade." For example, even though New Avengers #21-25 that tied in to Civil War have already been collected into premiere hardcover, trade paperback, and an oversized hardcover with New Avengers #26-31, those five issues are being reassembled into another oversized hardcover, better to be a companion with the Civil War oversized hardcover that's already hit the shelves. So I just don't see things trending that way right now.

Gregg: Oh no, I wasn’t suggesting any sort of trending. I was more asking, as you’re going back and reading comics from a period when things were done differently, if you maybe enjoyed that experience more or differently.

I totally get that it’s all about collecting for trade at this point and that’s how the machinery works. But I also wonder if knowing a story only will last so many months takes some of the joy or adventure out of it. And hey, this isn’t a new phenomenon. BATMAN/DETECTIVE did a lot of that in the late ‘80s and into the ‘90s with Year One, 10 Nights of the Beast, Death in the Family, Year Two, MudPack, Year Three, etc, etc.

I tend to read monthly comics month-to-month. Or, in the case of RUNAWAYS when I read that, I’d pace it out and read one issue of the digest and then read something else…try not to burn through the thing so fast. But I also don’t usually wait for a TV show to come out on DVD to watch it.

And as far as timing and late books, that’s a whole other digression. But suffice it to say there are probably more professional comic artists out there now who can do say, ten issues a year…but the folks that get the biggest accolades and attention don’t tend to be them.

But as the comics industry has been more writer-driven this past 10+ years at this point, it’s not surprising that it’s writers who are racking up long runs as opposed to teams. Bendis on USM and AVENGERS, Brubaker on CAPTAIN AMERICA, Gail Simone on BIRDS OF PREY, SECRET SIX and WONDER WOMAN, Geoff Johns on JSA or GREEN LANTERN…which, whether you like their work or not, certainly lends to a certain consistency, even if not visually (though in a lot of those examples it’s been pretty solid, too).

Hm. Maybe there are still runs happening out there while the Civil Wars, Rebirths, Sieges and Blackest Nights. Heck, Erik Larsen on SAVAGE DRAGON. That’s a long run if ever there was one.

   

Gregg Schigiel is a cartoonist, illustrator, and writer. He's worked as a penciller and editor for Marvel Comics and an illustrator and cartoonist at Nickelodeon in addition to creating his own characters and books. He's recently wrapped up the X-Babies mini series for Marvel with artist Jacob Chabot and writing and drawing Pix: Teenage American Fairy and Safari Junior High, appearing in the back of the G-Man: Cape Crisis mini series from Image. Check out his website at Hatter Entertainment.com.