RE: Comics! #30 [Romance]

Stephen Mayer: Since we’re starting on the column on Friday morning, love is in the air with Valentine’s Day right around the corner on Sunday. With that in mind, we’re gonna get a little lovey-dovey, a little mushy (or maybe the opposite) about romance in comics.

Let’s start with the biggest romantic shake-up in comics in recent years. Were you really upset about the One More Day storyline in Spider-man that tore Peter and Mary Jane apart?

Gregg Schigiel: I’m going to start out, it appears, on the non-mushy tip. No, I wasn’t actually upset in any real emotional way about the events of One More Day. But, I’m also not a regular Spider-Man reader. I don’t have the emotional investment in the character that many others do, and, in the end, it’s all make-believe and all the suspension of disbelief doesn’t change that. But that’s a cheat answer, to say it’s pretend so why get upset. There are plenty of readers who identify with and follow the lives and adventures of these characters the same way people follow sports teams and soap operas, and that passion, which is really (in so many ways) the thing that’s keeping comics as they currently exist a living, breathing industry, should not be discounted.

I vaguely remember the Spider-Man wedding. But I was a kid and really, weddings didn’t mean much to me. But I never had beef with a married Spider-Man. The premise bandied about that “Spider-Man’s supposed to be a teenaged loser with problems, etc, etc…he shouldn’t be married to a model, readers don’t identify with him!” – I don’t buy that. Readers seemed to like Spidey just fine in the late ‘80s when Venom first showed up and Todd McFarlane was blowing up the spot…and he was totally married. And if the readership has changed in the past 20 years I submit the readers are older, possibly even married dudes who’d identify just fine with a married Spider-Man.

It’s perfectly fair to argue whether a story was done well or poorly, but it’s harder to argue that a story should not be told or a story should be undone, etc. People seem perfectly fine, even pleased, with the return of Bucky. On the flip side, Superboy Prime’s universe-punch that brought back Jason Todd might raise a few eyebrows.

I’m getting off track. I’ll join the ranks and call some on shenanigans on how One More Day went down, sure, but the Spider-Man comics I’ve read since, when I pick up the occasional issue or arc, have been pretty solid Spider-Man comics. Less important than whether he is or isn’t married is who’s making the comics and are they good comics. And there’s always the question of “what did Mary Jane whisper to Mephisto?” that could lead to something intriguing, story-wise.

As someone who was more an Ultimate Spider-Man reader than an Amazing Spider-Man reader, outside of working in the comics industry, did One More Day and the “controversy” there even merit a blip on your radar? 

Stephen: One More Day didn’t bother me at all. We were getting a lot of flack from our customers about it, and I knew that they had to come out swinging in Brand New Day, but the first issue (#546) by Dan Slott and Steve McNiven pretty much quieted the fears of anyone that gave it a chance. I made the comment at some point that in the same way some people talk about Mark Bagley or Todd McFarlane or John Romita Jr. or even Steve Ditko’s runs as being “their Spider-man,” Brand New Day was quickly becoming my run, the comics that I’d eventually be issuing the merits of 10 or 20 years from now. Maybe I am identifying more with this Peter Parker because he’s a single guy (despite being in a committed relationship myself). I enjoy seeing him have near miss encounters with Black Cat and CSI officer Carlie Cooper and his roommate Michelle Rodriguez way more than his trying to get Mary Jane back during Strazynski’s run.

If I had one regret about the Brand New Day situation, it would be that Matt Fraction and Salvador Larrocca had just a few months earlier demonstrated everything that was great about Peter and MJ’s marriage and the strength they gave each other in the Eisner nominated Sensational Spider-man Annual #1.

As a better-read Avengers fan than I, can you explain the Vision and Scarlet Witch’s relationship to me? 

Gregg: Probably not. Who am I, Stephen, to explain the intangibilities of love…the mysteries of attraction…? Wouldn’t that be great, if I suddenly did a full one-eighty and got real serious about love in comics like that. Okay, maybe it’d just entertain me.

But as much as I’m a better-read Avengers fan, it was also long enough ago that, when I was really into the Avengers, Vision and the Scarlet Witch were already a couple…and then at a certain point they were on the West Coast Avengers (my brother read that one; I read the main title), so there are chunks I’m unaware of.

But I think in that instance it’s just a funky, unique pairing that struck a chord with people and made for good drama, especially when you throw in the Wonder Man element and the love triangle that begets (Wonder Man’s personality being part of the emotional programming of the Vision…or something like that? I’m blanking and am too lazy to look it up). And I think there’s a bit of the nerd-fantasy fulfillment there, too…the logical, seemingly emotionally devoid Vision gets the foxy redhead gypsy chick, despite the odds of such a thing being logical or possible.

Kind of like a nerdy, poor, science geek hooking up with a super-model.

Or Julia Roberts marrying Lyle Lovett. Oh, wait, that really happened…

As far as relationships go, The Avengers, for all their function as a team, have a pretty dysfunctional history. Vision/Scarlet Witch/Wonder Man; Hank Pym & Janet Van Dyne, Black Knight & Sersi, Namor & Marina…I seem to remember Hawkeye and Mockingbird being a nice couple. 

Stephen: Actually, if you read the New Avengers: the Reunion story by Jim McCann and David Lopez you find out that when Hawkeye and Mockingbird were having marital troubles during West Coast Avengers, the real Bobbi was flying back to the left coast to ask Clint for a divorce. Mockingbird got switched out by the Skrulls at the airport and it was the Skrull Bobbi that reconciled with Hawkeye and eventually died in West Coast Avengers #100. So yeah, not quite so happy.

I know when Identity Crisis came out and Sue Dibny went down there were a lot of people outraged on the internet, but I never heard anyone really get too bent out of shape about it in person. Are their any particular couples that you find especially endearing? 

Gregg: The internet: where outrage blooms.

An argument can be made that the events of Identity Crisis, while potentially interesting story fodder, might’ve “broken the toys” more than they should have been broken. You hear talk of how, when WATCHMEN was first a thing that was going to use the Charlton characters, DC expressed concern that doing what Watchmen did would forever change the characters irreparably. From there Moore and Gibbons created the cast of Watchmen as pastiches of The Question, Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, etc. In time, I wonder if something similar might be said of Identity Crisis?

Reading it at the time, I found it dark…creepy…kind of messed up, for sure. But it didn’t send me into a rage.

But Identity Crisis was full of troubling relationships and dynamics. There was the Ralph & Sue thing, sure, but also The Atom and Jean Loring…Robin’s dad…the infighting of the Justice League…it was a very dark turn and really, whether you liked it or not, turned the DCU in a distinctive direction where romance, getting back on topic, seemed like barely an afterthought, right?

As for endearing comics relationship. I remember finding Fone Bone and Rose in the early Bone stuff very sweet. Even though I wasn’t a reader at the time, there’s something also kind of cute to the Kitty Pryde and Colossus pair. Wally West and Linda Park; I liked them and I think Mark Waid really did a great job making that seem genuine, loving. And there’s a definite charm to Green Arrow and Black Canary (though I’ve not read any of their post-marriage adventures).

And then there’s Yorick’s love for Beth in Y, which despite how it played out, was quite a love story/quest.

On the non-romantic love front, it’s hard to beat GOODBYE, CHUNKY RICE by Craig Thompson (who also tells quite a story in BLANKETS).

And for unrequited love, though not a comic book, I’m hard pressed to find a better example than Peanuts. 

Stephen: I’m obviously a Kitty and Colossus fan, too. I’ve got a lot in Scott and Ramona in SCOTT PILGRIM. I enjoy the Mr. and Mrs. Smith aspect of Hawkeye and Mockingbird’s relationship. Jessica Jones and Luke Cage were great. I wish we saw more of them together in New Avengers.  

Are you referring to the unrequited love between Charlie Brown and the Red Headed Girl? For my part, I really felt for Boy Blue when he was pining after Rose Red for 50 issues or so in FABLES. 

Gregg: Great point about Blue and Rose Red; I should have thought of that myself. Well done!

Not just Charlie Brown and the little Red-Headed Girl. That strip/series is wall-to-wall unrequited love. Lucy for Schroeder. Sally for Linus. Peppermint Patty for Charlie Brown. Some would say Marcie for Peppermint Patty if you’re so inclined to play that somewhat played out joke. Though yes, Charlie Brown and the little Red-Haired Girl would be the most iconic of the Peanuts’ unrequited love stories.

Speaking of iconic, where do you stand on the “big” relationships in comics? Do you buy them, or do they seem forced/unnatural? Superman & Lois Lane. Reed & Sue Richards. Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine? 

Stephen: I haven’t read many Superman comics in the grand scheme of things, so my main Lois/Superman exposure is from LOIS & CLARK, SUPERMAN THE ANIMATED SERIES, and SMALLVILLE. But since we’re trying to stick to the comics, I’ve read stuff like ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, which had an incredibly sweet two issue arc where Lois drank a formula that gave her Superman’s powers for 24 hours. Overall I don’t buy them as a couple, especially in a book like SUPERMAN: WORLD OF NEW KRYPTON where he’s able to accept exile from Earth and separation from Lois in order to keep an eye on General Zod on New Krypton with time to return for weak crossovers in books like WORLD’S FINEST, but no time to see his wife. Somewhere in my mind I always thought that Clark missed out not staying behind with Lana in Smallville.

Reed and Sue make a lot more sense right now in Jonathan Hickman’s current run than they ever did to me during Mark Waid or JMS or Mark Millar’s stretches on the title. ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR did an interesting job of making Sue smarter than Reed in subjects like biology while letting him hang on to engineering and mechanics. She also got an upper hand by being older.

Cyclops and Jean Grey had a special place in my heart for a while because as I stated in the column from two weeks ago (I think), X-Men #30 when they had their wedding was one of the earliest comics I remember holding in high regard. At the same time, I’ve enjoyed the stories with Scott and Emma Frost in NEW X-MEN and ASTONISHING X-MEN much more than anything with Scott and Jean. 

Gregg: Do you think, in a general sense, comics are a place where love stories work? In movies and TV, love stories are often helped along by swelling music and longing looks and subtle moments…things that, in comics, might not translate so well. And more specifically, in superhero comics, if you apply the “adolescent male power fantasy” description, is that a venue/genre where a depiction of romantic love can exist…really?

Stephen: I was going to go in a direction similar to this, pointing out something along the lines of romance working better in independent comics like TRUE STORY SWEAR TO GOD by Tom Beland or LOVE BUZZ by Len Wallace and Michelle Silva, even if they end up in heartbreak.

Sometimes I think comics have more an advantage in creating moments. For example, the opening of SCOTT PILGRIM vol. 4, with great pacing on page 1 leading into the fantastical splash on pages 2 and 3. Or the swirling, organic layouts in BLANKETS when the characters are losing themselves in each other. In a movie that would probably be a sexy montage of dissolves and filters with some top 40 indie breakout band playing over top, whereas in Blankets one figure can flow straight into the other with Thompson’s angels and symbols and brush strokes filling the backgrounds.

Carly just chimed in to mention that Fables has various types of “storybook love” with Snow White and Bigby taking their lengthy courtship and Rose Red’s self-destructive path to her soulmate (still searching).

For the final part of your question, though I don’t think superhero comics are quite the “adolescent male power fantasties” that they were in say the 1990s, I don’t think there’s ever going to be a place for a book with a strong romantic thread on the shelf.  

Gregg: I think that’s my inherent question to superhero comics and love stories. Is there something inherently “immature” to superhero comics (and I’m not saying this as a negative, I’m PRO the immaturity of superheroes and welcome more of the light-hearted, less “this is what superheroes would be like if they were REAL” stuff that has been the path for so long) that leaves less room for the “maturity” of love and relationships?

Or is it just a matter of finding a new way or new angle on the “love story”? For example, one could argue that Die Hard, despite all the big action and cool moments, is a love story of John McClane trying to reunite with his wife and family.

Not to keep playing the Mark Waid song, but his run on Flash, with the aforementioned Wally and Linda, was very much a love story. On the flip side, I’ve never been able to buy Batman/Bruce Wayne and Catwoman…or Talia Al Ghul… I’m not sure why.

But most of the books we’ve mentioned that play better with love and romance have tended to be indie books or Vertigo books or “mature” comics. These days folks go back and read silver age books and can laugh at the simplicity and silliness of Superman marrying a mermaid and Lois being jealous…but how different is that than the implications of Hank Pym and Jocasta with Janet Van Dyne’s brain pattern, really? It’s all kind of nutty and not quite “realistic”, no? Though again, I’m for comics not having to be so realistic.

Fables does a great job with it because there’s that element of storybook magic that informs it and affects how it’s read. Bill Willingham clearly understands what tools are at his disposal and uses them masterfully.

Maybe it’s because traditional, monthly superhero comics never end? So in the same way soap operas go on and on, the weight or heft of something gets a little lost and love and relationships are more like “episodes” than “moments”?

I might be circling the net on this one without any real answer, but this is almost me thinking aloud and just asking questions…it’s more than likely, as past conversations have shown, we won’t exactly answer these questions. 

Stephen: Speaking of love, I neglected to mention in my Emo Life! last Friday that this weekend marked my 5 year anniversary of being with Carly. Since I failed to give her the spotlight there, I’m gonna give her a chance to chime in now!

Carly Storum: I imagine romance is something that is easy to write in theory.  A crush or puppy love is the kind of spark that usually gives most stories (comics, movies, TV shows) that first breath of life.  Everyone can relate to it and everyone wants to be loved.  The dance of early romance is fun to read, but it is a hard thing to sustain [see Smallville seasons 1-???].  

The thing you don’t see in comics is sustained love.  Yesterday in the car Stephen and I were listening to an artist talk about his relationship with his wife and he called love a series of “simple secrets.”  Those are the moments, good and bad, that only your partner sees.  The times when you are at your most vulnerable and you only have your partner to lean on.  Comics don’t really have moments like that.  Comics have arcs full of broad, sweeping storylines and dramatic ups and downs. 

And I can’t say that the lack of simple moments is bad writing.  People don’t necessarily want to read about petty arguments or deciding whether or not to buy a house.   No one wants to see Mary Jane standing in front of a mirror worrying about her hair or getting old.  They want to see her flirty and fun, ready to be saved.  Nobody wants to see Spider-man reassuring her that she’s still got that swing.  Superheroes have bigger things to worry about.  And that is why it is easier to kill off, reboot, or ship out girlfriends and spouses.    

Gregg: Could we go so far as to generalize that comics are typically written by boys/men for boys/men and that boys/men might be less inclined, even the most sensitive of us, to address the subtleties and moments in our action-based fiction? Not to mention on the audience side, a possible lack of interest in that kind of thing? Again, these are generalizations! But there are certainly no shortage of novels about petty arguments or whether or not to buy a house…surely lots of movies about people concerned about their self-image and value…and songs, oh the songs about love.

And I think we neglect to point out manga, of which I’m not a big reader, but as I understand it favors the more romantic love/soap operatic stories, which folks theorize explains their popularity with female readers.

It is at least remotely telling that it was a female to chimed in and spoke to the nature of long-term sustained romance and love? (though, not for nothing, Carly, but kill-offs, reboots and ship-outs are not limited to the girlfriends and spouses; those things are about as common as capes and masks it seems)

But heck, like other topics we’ve discussed here at RE: COMICS, I’m no expert on love and romance and the “simple secrets”. I barely knew about Hawkeye and Mockingbird! 

Stephen: This might be the greatest question of all, mightn’t it? What is love and where do we find it? Who are we to say what love is? Love is more than a violet ring, right? 

Gregg Schigiel is a cartoonist, illustrator, and writer. He's worked as a penciller and editor for Marvel Comics and an illustrator and cartoonist at Nickelodeon in addition to creating his own characters and books. He's recently wrapped up the X-Babies mini series for Marvel with artist Jacob Chabot and writing and drawing Pix: Teenage American Fairy and Safari Junior High, appearing in the back of the G-Man: Cape Crisis mini series from Image. Check out his website at Hatter Entertainment.com.